Unladen weights & MAM clarification

Been lookong into this last night funnily enough, as SWMBO doesn't have +E towing entitlement. As i understand it, as long as out fully loaded caravan (1550 kgs) doesn't weigh more than our UNLADEN car, e.g kerbweight (1740 kgs) and both figures are below 3500 tonne then she is fine to tow. (Well when i say fine i mean theoretically.................).

Yes, thats right, BUT is appears that the police aren't following this VOSA guideline!  I'd print a copy of the VOSA memo out & keep it in the glovebox to show plod "just in case".

That's incorrect - the licence restrictions use MAMs in their calculation - vehicle restrictions use actual weights.

Licence infringements don't involve weighing the vehicle/trailer - vehicle infringements do.

There is a very clear distinction in law between licence restrictions and vehicle restrictions - VOSA shouldn't be asked, or answer, any questions on licence restrictions as it's outside their remit.

Roger, that isn't the information given out by the National Trailer Towing Associaition, although they do admit that as no case has ever gone to court there is no legal precident set for guidance.

Roger, is my basic understanding above correct then, and more importantly is my calculations correct and legal in your opinion?

The aspect that affects caravanners, motorhomers and tenters is the restrictions placed on B only licence holders - those who passed their car test after 1/1/97 and haven't aquired a +E licence by taking a towing test.

As far as B only drivers are concerned - for example a Freelander 2 (kerbweight 1800kg, MAM 2300kg) towing a goods trailer (500kg unladen, MAM 2000kg) is illegal under driver licencing regulations - even if both are empty so that the actual train weight is only 2800kg.

All a police office would have to do is:- a) check the driver's licence, b) check the car MAM, c) check the trailer MAM, e) compare A to B+C, f) issue the ticket!

One of the problems of asking questions of DVLA, VOSA and others is that the answer cannot be used unless the EXACT wording of the question is known.

Brassneck, on 14 August 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Assuming your car has a MAM of around 2250kg, that would give a sum of the MAMs of 3800kg (2250+1550) which would be illegal on a B only licence.

In my 'umble opinion, of course.

The following is taken almost directly from DVLA, relating to B only licence holders - I've removed the extraneous detail about unbraked trailers up to 750kg.

Category B vehicles may be coupled with ...... a trailer ......provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

As I understand it, the recent reduction in French towing speed limits for larger outfits uses the same 3500kg MAM combination weight to define "larger" outfit.

GaryB, on 14 August 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I have being arguing that point, but no one believed me.  It is not an offence to be towing an empty trailer with a higher MTPLM and when empty weighs 800kg and is plated with a gross weight of 2000kgs and the vehicle's maximum gross weight is 1600kgs.  It probably could easily be overturned in court as here-say evidence is not acceptable.
The argument is that the plate is telling you the maximum gross weight the caravan can carry.  The plate does not state that you MUST always load it to the maximum.  In this case the officer is incorrect if they issued the ticket based on weights, however check the actual offence on the ticket, it may not be related to the weight, but may relate to a " dangerous" issue on the road.

From what I understand, the guy that got stopped is going to seek legal advice from a solicitor that specialises in motoring offences, if I get any feedback I'll post it up.

Surfer, on 14 August 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

It's more complicated than that - to do with the difference in enforcing driver restrictions compared to enforcing vehicle restrictions.

GaryB, on 14 August 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

I'll certainly be interested in hearing the outcome, in detail.

RogerL, on 14 August 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Roger, the point you raise is very valid if for example a B category driver is driving a vehicle with a GVM of 2000kg and towing a trailer with a MTPLM of 2000kgs  At the point they are pulled over by the police the actual weight of the vehicle is 1600kg and the trailer as it is empty weighs 1000kgs.  Technically the driver's licence complies with the restriction on it as the combined gross weight is less than 3500kgs and the towing vehicle's weight is higher than the trailer.  Is this an offence as the driver is complying with the parameters of the B licence?  It must be remembered that the VIN plates is only showing the maximum weights and this is where the law is a bit grey as the offence would be to exceed the plated weights and in this scenario this isn't happening.  If it were me, I would take the chance and defend the ticket as the chances are you will not be prosecuted.  Reading through everything on RTA & EU if you decided to defend, i doubt it would get to prosecution stage once you submitted your defence based on the facts above plus a few others including a VOSA assessment.

Surfer, on 14 August 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

No - I think you're using the term "gross" incorrectly - the "actual" weight is less than 3500kg but the "gross" weight is 4000 kg in your example.

The term used is combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM

The VOSA letter link in post #1 refers to B+E entitlements NOT B entitlements which have restrictions based on plated weights

From Directgov:
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

• a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

• the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

The offence for driving outside the terms of a B entitlement is "driving otherwise than in accordance with the licence" so was this the offence committed?

There is no weighing involved just a check on the plated weights as  car MAM + trailer MAM must not exceed 3500kg.
Additionally the trailer's plated  MTPLM must not  exceed the car's unladen weight but it seems this being dropped from 2013

RogerL, on 14 August 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

He's promised to keep me up to date and I'll post on here as & when I hear anything.

Gary - I've just gone back and read VOSA's letter in your original post - that's all about vehicle/trailer weights and has no reference at all to licence restrictions.

The legislators have clearly used two different methods of defining weight limits - presumably intentionally - and the method for defining vehicle weight limits cannot be used in cases where licence weight limits are alleged to have been exceeded.

Beejay, on 14 August 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

With the section i've underlined above, i think my situation is correct.

The MAM of the caravan is LESS than the unladen weight of towing car (caravan 1550 car 1750). So the combined is 3300 Kgs, which is less than the allowed 3500 tonne.

Or am i not getting this right again?

No Lenny, it's the sum of the MAMs that's used, not the car unladen + caravan MAM.

The Directgov section you've underlined refers to a car MAM of 2 tonnes and a trailer MAM of 1.25 tonnes giving the sum of the MAMs as 3.25 tonnes - which is indeed below the B only limit.

In your case the car is 1750kg unladen which I'm guessing is about 2500kg MAM with a caravan of 1550kg MAM so the sum of the MAMs is 2500+1550=4050kg approx.

If you can post the MAM of your car, I can show the exact calculation.

Got it now Roger.

Not simple is it.

According to V5, the max permissible mass (V5 wording) is 2505. It lists kerb as 1736, which is about spot on.

Brassneck, on 14 August 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

In which case, it's 2505+1550=4055 - which means that your partner's B only doesn't cover it in the UK or Europe and if you went to France your outfit would be subject to the lower 90kph (56mph) towing limit as that uses the same methodology.

Perversely, I don't think either regulation is being vigorously policed at present.

RogerL, on 14 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Which ever, as long as the actual weight of the combination does not exceed the 3500kg even though the sum of the maximum gross plated weight on the VIN plates is higher than 3500kgs, it should still be legal for a B licence?

Surfer, on 14 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

No! The sum of the MAMs mustn't exceed 3500kg.

For the avoidance of doubt, "MAM" is short for Maximum Authorised Mass and "sum" is adding two (or more) numbers together.

RogerL, on 14 August 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Roger that is the part that I have been trying to find in the RTA and other related legislation and cannot as it refers to weights and not MAM on the VIN plates.  Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can actual point to the legislation which specifically refers to the plated MAM of the vehicle and plated MAM of the trailer.  From my understanding the legislation seems to only refer to the actual "weights".
Also a person with a B licence can drive a combination exceeding 3500kg if they are accompanied by a person who holds a B+E licence and they do not have to sit a test as a provisional B+E is apparently automatically granted at time of passing B licence.  There are also one or two exemptions where they do n to have to be accompanied by a B+E driver, i.e. accident and moving a vehicle.

Surfer, on 14 August 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Correct - as long as they display "L" plates - and they're allowed on motorways in the same way as HGV/PSV learners.

I understood that updating a licence after passing a test for any category gave automatic provisional entitlement for all other groups - mine still does but later issues of licences may have withdrawn that facility.

Surfer, on 14 August 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Have you looked on the Directgov website? Although their wording can lead to confusion on towing limits for unbraked and braked trailers there's no confusion on the wording of licence restriction weight methodology.

The exact wording from Directgov has been quoted by at least two of us.

The original RTA isn't published on the internet as it's before the cut-off date for publishing all legislation online - and it's been amended so many times with early amendments not online even though later amendments are - that the only place to read it coherently is an up-to-date copy of Stones' Justices Manual which is what Magistrates use.