Elddis Solid Construction

Factory Visit

http://www.elddis.co.uk/event

Interesting but it must be difficult to remove parts if a repair is required further down the line. I have no problem with adhesives used in the automotive industry but I have little confidence in them in structural automotive areas considering the vibration and flex a normal caravan is subjected to.

I'll keep an eye open  next time I have a tow bar fitted to make sure he doesn't use a tube of "No more nails"

It has to be a highly specialized industry to rely solely on bonding - even cars with "bonded" aluminium chassis are actually bonded and rivetted to avoid reliance on just one fixing method.

So that's the process, first time i've seen it.

When Bailey introduced alu-tech they put a 3 year clause in the service schedule stating all bolts must be re-torqued on 3rd service, a very expensive must for owners. They have now dropped that, meaning only NOW are they confident that the first generation of 3 year old vans are staying screwed together. I think you would have to be totally nuts or ignorant to purchase a van that is bonded at this stage or even over the next 3 years. If they can't even get the sealing right NOW round new vans what chance have you got if the whole thing is glued together?

My concerns exactly. At least now if they don't seal it right they can take it apart & sort it. If a fully bonded caravan leaks in one place how on earth do you take it apart to sort it? I also noticed the floor being bonded to the chassis, a caravan chassis is a simple afair with not a lot of surface area to bond to an entire caravan body.......

GaryB, on 18 August 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

My concerns exactly. At least now if they don't seal it right they can take it apart & sort it. If a fully bonded caravan leaks in one place how on earth do you take it apart to sort it? I also noticed the floor being bonded to the chassis, a caravan chassis is a simple afair with not a lot of surface area to bond to an entire caravan body.......

I honestly can't believe that Elddis won't be using some bolts to hold the floor to the oh so flexible chassis.

As for me, I wouldn't be confident in buying one of these until it has been well and truly proven.

Personally I hate mastic, positively loath the stuff as it has a shelf life, or in other words it dries out and stops flexing which is the number one reason for water ingress, so what miraculous new solvents are they using and does this mean the end to the use of mastic ?

For me next time it will definitely be either a Hymer or a Hobby.

Blue Louis, on 18 August 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I agree, but as Design Manager within the engineering industry, I know just how easy it is to miss something obvious in something that is radically new, no matter what design methodologies are followed.  There's no substitute for testing as many samples as possible in as many harsh environments as possible.  If Elddis have done this then fair enough, but....................

Blue Louis, on 18 August 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

That's not totally fair - properly specified mastic and solvents are excellent, over very long periods - but the caravan industry has a long track record of choosing the cheapest rather than the correct one.

Here is a follow up vid, showing a few more tests/methods

RogerL, on 18 August 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

In the construction industry, mastic is the solution for poor design in my opinion.

In 1941 the de Havilland Mosquito was introduced into RAF service, with devastating effect - it was a bonded sandwich construction made from balsa wood and birch, described below:-

The oval-section fuselage was a frameless monocoque shell built in two halves being formed to shape by band clamps over a mahogany or concrete mould, each holding one half of the fuselage, split vertically. The shell halves were made of sheets of Ecuadorean balsawood sandwiched between sheets of Canadian birch, but in areas needing extra strength— such as along cut-outs— stronger woods replaced the balsa filler; the overall thickness of the birch and balsa sandwich skin was only 7/16 in (11.11mm). This sandwich skin was so stiff no internal reinforcement was necessary from the wing's rear spar to the tail bearing bulkhead

Note that the overall sandwich thickness was only 11.1mm

I somehow doubt that Elddis are at this standard.

Blimey Roger, that brings back memories, the coachbuilder my Father employed when I started work was one of the coachbuilders employed building Mosquito,s, he spent many a lunch break describing the method's used.

if you fly abroad most jets are glued together these days.

Metz, on 21 August 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Just balsa, plywood and glue - designed specifically to allow all the furniture makers around the country to contribute to the war effort.

But the Mosquito was designed by engineers with special emphasis on joints and stress points.

I used to make models out of card and flour paste - I wonder which the SoLiD construction is nearer to?

RogerL, on 21 August 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

The big difference is between the oh so beautiful Mosquito and a Bailey caravan is that one is supposed to last for years and years of trouble free ownership and the other was designed to perform in the most extreme theatres of war.

I don't care how they put the damn things together as long as they stay together and most of all they don't let the water in. Bailey said that they had found the answer but mine has leaked!!
What makes Eldiss construction any different. The rain will get in somewhere sometime if not now, later.

Challenger, on 22 August 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

The difference is that the body bonded to the chassis is a possible flaw if water ingress is a problem as it could easily attack the bonding or/and the caravan structure. With bolts at least you can be relatively happy they are all in place and even check them from underneath.

The shoddy sealing jobs on caravans has been a long running problem, so how is introducing MORE sealing as a structural basis a step forward? It isn't. It's open to the same shoddy workmanship as the rest.

The stresses placed on a caravan and it's flexing in situations is documented somewhere. With bolts you know they will stand firm, and if needed can be re-tightened. Not so with bonding. If a section is missed, which it will be, the unit is unstable from the start.

I wasn't a fan of the bolts on the alu-tech vans, especially as Bailey had absolutely no long term testing of their structural integrity. I think you would have to be a fool to become a new Elddis owner in the next three years.

As a direct comparrison, how are vans like Hymer, Hobby etc. etc. put together ?

There has been some fantastic advances in polymers and adhesives over the years, but adhesives are only as good as the surface to which they are bonded to, with surface preparation being critical.  If there is any residue, oxidation or contamination on the galvanised chassis, or if the galvanising itself is suspect, the bond will be weakened.  This is then (presumably) bonded to plywood floor that has a thin coat of matt black paint on it.........

I'm all for technology advances and I know that aeroplanes & others are bonded together, but I suspect that they are assembled in a tighter quality controlled environment.  I might well be wrong, but I won't be handing any money over to Elddis for a few years yet.......

GaryB, on 22 August 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hi Gary
There was a video posted on youtube of the inside of the Bailey factory and the way they produced their vans. You could not be further from a quality controlled environment. It looked filthy and so did the workers. There wasn't an overall or protective covering in sight!
How they think they can use advanced technology under those condidtions is beyond me.

We are dealing with a cottage industry that still thinks the best thing to do is to close the factory during the busiest period of the year!!!!

Challenger, on 22 August 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

That is the root of the problem, IMO.  I have no idea what the sales volumes are for a particular model made by a particular manufacturer, but they can't be that high.  Tooling up to do anything innovative must have a horrendous payback for return on the capital outlay, working closely with aluminium extrusions and plastic injection mouldings I can only think that the likes of Bailey a). have found an aluminium extruder who is happy to produce low volume production runs (they are only really interested in supplying high volume profiles to the window industry etc) and b). are prepared to have payback periods running into years rather than months.  I struggle to get capital approved if it is over 11 months!  The shear size of caravan components also dictates that the tooling costs are very high.

Before they look at innovative assembly techniques they ought to look at product rationalisation and design re-use, standardising on interchangable parts wherever possible to minimise the investment needed and concentrating on getting right what they have done for years before moving on.

IMO the Swift group have made some progress by using treated rot-proof timbr int he construction (so the blurb says) and also eliminating as many joints as possible.  Mine is only 3 months old so its too soon to tell if it works yet......

GaryB, on 22 August 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I honestly think that the root problem is the brainless way that the UK caravan manufacturers bring out new models each and every year, just like the car industry (most especially the Yanks) did way back in the early 60's, now look what the auto industry are doing, normally at least 5 year life cycles.

You can only reduce capital outlay on design, product development & tooling if you have a decent production life cycles and by doing so, so should increase the durability and quality of the end product but to do what the UK caravan manufacturers do each year with new product launch after yet another new product launch is plain bonkers.

Blue Louis, on 22 August 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Hymer van is an aluminium polyurethane foam, marine ply sandwisc with an internal aluminium frame at points where rails and screws are fixed. The whole lot is bonded together with a non setting sealant, the awning rails are a 90 degree secton that is bonded to the side and to the roof with screws going doiwn into the aluminium frame section from the roof. there is no wood at all that is accessible to the outside of the body, there is nowhere for any water ingress to go the frame being aluminium will retain any water that goes down the sides of the screws, failing that the polyurethane is totally impervious to water unlike the standard foam that is used in Uk vans which will become water logged. . The result is a body that is extremely resistant to water ingress, but which if ingress does happen will not rot and no terminal damage can be done to it. My Hymer is now 10 years old and has been used well we have had over 750 nights away in the van over the 10 years we have had it. It has had no leaks anywhere, no construction problems and will never be swapped for anything else, when I stop caravanning I will trade the van until then it will be on my driveway or with me on holiday.
Hobby vans are put together in the same sort of way as Uk vans

GaryB, on 22 August 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Youve hit the nail on the head............accountants........they are ruining our industry....or have ruined it

bi6als, on 22 August 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

They can't see any further ahead than the end of their calculator.