20 replies to this topic

[Blue Louis]

Personally speaking I love the countryside and am very fortunate to live in a heaven sent location.

Unfortunately though, throughout Europe landscapes and seascapes have been blighted by enormous wind farms and photovoltaic solar farms.

Now I know there is a dire need to have as many alternative forms of power generation, but couldn't it be done in a far more acceptable fashion and without the need for the various governments to have to subsidise the installations?

[indoors]

Hi all,
I've been following this subject on a ex pats forum, the jury is out regarding whether they are good,bad,accepted or not. I would like to see concrete evidence of the validity for their use. I have been told by someone a lot more up on these things that a Solar panel can never in it's lifetime produce as much power as it took to produce it.( that doesn't seem to make them very green !!) So I'd like to know how big a footprint does it cost from all the production,delivery,erecting and comissioning these things and how many tens of years have they to turn before they produce " Free " power.
indoors.
NB: We've just had another big " Farm " added to the landscape in Leicestershire, whilst at Leicester Forest East services recently we saw  three very big long trucks each carrying one blade for the things.

[Kiaman]

We have just had 5 of these monsters erected in a field about 2 miles from where we live in a very rural area. Millions have been spent erecting them and the farmer who's land they are on has benefited by more than £1M himself! I'm sure that for the same money they could have equipped several thousand homes with a solar setup which would be far less unsightly.
The other thing that bugs me is that the companies that own them are getting paid when they are NOT generating as well as when they are!

[MrGreen]

In my opinion.

If alternatives to carbon derived fuels such as wind, solar, biomass hydrogen fuel cells and hydro are not going to be utilised through lack of support or incentives then we will become reliant on nuclear, which is a low carbon method of electricity generation and is fine until there is an accident , natural or through human error or until decommission day arrives.

Unfortunately there is a majority culture of " not on my doorstep" , but i for one would prefer to see a windturbine than a reactor on my doorstep, providing that i wasnt getting noise, sound or light pollution from it .

Government management to stimulate renewable growth through funding streams has been a debacle across many countries

A culture of consumerism needs to be changed and a reduce,reuse recycle approach would definately reduce our dependence on energy.

Currently fossil fuel is still cheap compared to renewables and will only become viable when oil reserves drop or the Russians turn the gas valves off.

I have certainly enjoyed our times away this year being off grid our only reliance has been a fresh water supply and a waste point, it definately focuses the mind on energy consumption

[bi6als]

Im currently in between jobs ie unemployed. I keep retiring but dont seem able to make it last. Anyway, I have a choice of two or three projects for my next job. One of which is the commisioning and development of a yard for building wind turbines.

I know absolutely nothing about the pros and cons of wind power, except as Lloyd (Mr Green) above has mentioned, one of the alternatives is Nuclear with all the issues that brings.

One very positive aspect of Turbines is the number of jobs created at a time when we need them. Proper jobs for properly skilled and educated people, not schemes or minimum wage jobs.
There is even a dedicated web site  http://www.windindus...jobs/england/2/

[shipbroker]

I worked for some months within 300 yards of a major port based windfarm.......the noise and resultant headaches put me off them for life.I'd rather burn pay-slips to keep me warm.

geoff

[MrGreen]

shipbroker, on 10 October 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I worked for some months within 300 yards of a major port based windfarm.......the noise and resultant headaches put me off them for life.I'd rather burn pay-slips to keep me warm.

geoff

Geoff , without doubt they can be noisy , as the farm one 500m from where we stay proved during a gale the other day, it sounded like a Sea King coming into land , so location is very important. Must say though that was only one occasion over 60 odd days.

Would you feel the same about oil or gas if you worked near a petrochemical site and were exposed to the conditions, would you still use the energy at your home or for your car generated via this method ?

The solution can't be wind alone anyway and will need to be a hybrid of technologies to guarantee the grid parity that we all need.

[shipbroker]

MrGreen, on 10 October 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Geoff , without doubt they can be noisy , as the farm one 500m from where we stay proved during a gale the other day, it sounded like a Sea King coming into land , so location is very important. Must say though that was only one occasion over 60 odd days.

Would you feel the same about oil or gas if you worked near a petrochemical site and were exposed to the conditions, would you still use the energy at your home or for your car generated via this method ?

The solution can't be wind alone anyway and will need to be a hybrid of technologies to guarantee the grid parity that we all need.

For many years I did work amidst the oil & gas technology industry and didn't have any problems with it.......in my eyes a blend would be nice but I believe the French pattern of nuclear development is probably the right one......

geoff

p.s. I would just mention that for a year or so I did act as a occasional paid consultant to the wind farm industry for the logistics of import and /or export of the equipment.........but it didn't make me like them any more!
gf

[MrGreen]

Action required soon, according to Ofgem last week http://www.walesonli...91466-31976881/

[bi6als]

Isnt it the Oil and Gas / Coal fired plants that cause many of the problems that renewables are designed to prevent ie pollution of the atmosphere.

Its also a bit ironic that we are discussing it on a Caravan Forum when many (if not most) of us drive gas guzzlers.

[MrGreen]

bi6als, on 10 October 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Im currently in between jobs ie unemployed. I keep retiring but dont seem able to make it last. Anyway, I have a choice of two or three projects for my next job. One of which is the commisioning and development of a yard for building wind turbines.

I know absolutely nothing about the pros and cons of wind power, except as Lloyd (Mr Green) above has mentioned, one of the alternatives is Nuclear with all the issues that brings.

One very positive aspect of Turbines is the number of jobs created at a time when we need them. Proper jobs for properly skilled and educated people, not schemes or minimum wage jobs.
There is even a dedicated web site  http://www.windindus...jobs/england/2/

Good luck , plenty of green recruitment companies out there advertising at present .

Down side of unsustainable growth through poorly handled funding programs is that the PV companies that sprouted up and jumped on the bandwagon are now going bankrupt or closing at an alarming rate, something like 8 a week

And yes i drive a gas guzzler but i don't fly very often ( It wears my arms out )

[Blue Louis]

Wind farms are there to generate electricity, but what I can't understand when I am driving around France or indeed the UK is that even in a howler of a gale a goodly percentage of the wind turbines don't appear to be rotating for whatever reason ?

When talking about power generation, I know of a lot of houses, barns and industrial buildings with photovoltaic panels fitted, indeed I regularly receive phone calls from businesses trying to sell me the idea of having them fitted to my own property, saying they would generate (no pun intended) an additional income of between 1,000 & 2,000€ per annum by selling the excess electricity produced back into the grid.  But on digging deeper it turns out that most systems would take up to 15 years to cover the equipment and installation costs by which time no doubt they would need changing any way!

Personally I don't have any problem with the fitment of photovoltaic panels onto properties, just as long as they aren't in conservation areas and also with large photovoltaic or wind turbine farms in grotty areas of the countryside, but I do object to vast tracts of the countryside or seaside being ruined by the installation of these devices.

[indoors]

" I have certainly enjoyed our times away this year being off grid our only reliance has been a fresh water supply and a waste point, it definately focuses the mind on energy consumption "

Hi Lloyd,
It really would be great to enjoy our pastime " off grid " but may I ask how did you cook,heat, wash and shower.
As I asked in my first post,just how free is the energy from wind farms or solar panels.
indoors.

[MrGreen]

indoors, on 10 October 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

" I have certainly enjoyed our times away this year being off grid our only reliance has been a fresh water supply and a waste point, it definately focuses the mind on energy consumption "

Hi Lloyd,
It really would be great to enjoy our pastime " off grid " but may I ask how did you cook,heat, wash and shower.
As I asked in my first post,just how free is the energy from wind farms or solar panels.
indoors.

Lol I am not hooked up to a EHU ( I forgot that on forums you have to be exact and accurate to the letter , this is why I can't be arsed to post half the time ) all of my electrical use is via a 100 w PV to 2 110a/h batteries, including all 240 through an inverter. I Cook a lot on a biomass stove with a dutch oven its superb and use a Kelly kettle for hot water, this uses colected wood and charcoal ( ah got me again on embedded carbon for transport etc) , but hands up I use propane and I drive my car to get it to heat water for a shower and sometimes for the cooker, but theoretically speaking I am not directly connected to the grid ;-) . No one : edit : very few people are truly off grid as there is always embedded carbon from somewhere in the scenario

[MrGreen]

Indoors , small scale solar pv payback on tariff I had and as an installer is approx two years  for me.

In reality it was about 8 yrs with the tariff last year and now about 11 -12 yrs . You actually get about 3600 Kwh from a 4 kw system and for someone with a pv for free scheme equates to approx 250 per year , the kicker is the tariff and that if you owned a 4 kw domestic system pre Dec 2011 would generate an income of about £1800 pa

But now the tariff has dropped that same income would be closer to £600 pa , panel prices and install cost by the surviving companies has dropped dramatically

Not so sure about the large scale wind turbine scheme as this is funded by ROCs

I'm glad that I am involved in the commercial renewables market and not the domestic

The above costs are approximate ;-)